The essay below is not an exact transcript of the video, text has been added or edited, and the video does not cover the entire essay, exactly, but it comes very close. Enjoy!
This is a response to a YouTube video posted by LordImmolation titled, “Pantheism.”
In his video he essentially asks pantheists and panentheists, “Why view the universe as God?” Because he feels it merely adds confusion, and I am forced to agree. It can and does add confusion, since pantheism is like a quasi blend between atheism and theism.
I thought he asked a series of very interesting and valid questions, so I will try to answer why I personally often refer to the universe as God. Though keep in mind, I also quite often use terms like nature, the cosmos, The Supreme Being, or the All to refer to the universe.
Some of the specific questions he asks pantheists and panentheists are the following;
1. Why aren’t you just Atheists?
2. Why don’t you just call it the Universe?
3. Is it really necessary to make this distinction, separate from atheism? Because he feels that pantheism is just a dressed up version of atheism or merely a more poetic expression of atheism, and that it should probably just be dropped altogether.
He felt that pantheism had no ontological significance. That is, that it didn’t seem to have any importance when investigating and discussing the nature of reality or existence. Overall, I think he wants us to show him an appreciable difference between our view of the universe and atheism. Now since I am a pantheist and not a panentheist, I will mainly focus on pantheism.
For those who are not familiar with those two terms, I will briefly explain them and how they differ from one another.
Pantheism is the view that the entire universe is God. That God and the universe are one in the same. God is the whole of all things, including all living things. The literal meaning of the word pantheism, which derives from the Greek language, is All is God. And one who believes in pantheism is called a pantheist, which is what I am.
However, panentheism is somewhat different in that it is the view that the whole universe is only a subset of God, and that God can exist separately and independent of the universe. Most panentheists view the entire universe as something that evolves or changes, even as whole. They also hold to the idea that God can choose to intervene and interact with the universe to make changes that would otherwise be impossible. These characteristics cause many to view panentheism to be closer to traditional theism. So keep in mind that I am a pantheist not a panentheist. I do not believe God can exist beyond or separate from the universe in any way. And I view the universe as a fixed thing, when viewed as a whole. In essence, this “whole” reflects a yin-yang quality, which forever remains balanced and conserved.
Now, it’s also important to describe how I personally define God, because it does stray quite a bit from the traditional Christian definition, which defines God as an entity that is all good, all knowing, all powerful, and the creator of all things. A supernatural being, usually a male or father figure, who watches over each of us with concern for our well being.
Personally, I don’t believe God is some all powerful male figure capable of doing what ever He wants. God, in my view, is the universe–limited to a set of natural laws. So God—the universe– does not have the ability to choose. God is more like a natural machine. In fact, I usually refer to God as It and almost never as Him, unless I accompany the word with Her to convey the yin-yang aspect of the universe. But to me, it is a very divine machine with rules and physical laws, which everything has to obey. For example, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction or the pi of any circle must be 3.14. I use the term divine, when describing this machine, only to convey its incredible functionality and complexity and order, which overall seems to have value, meaning and purpose, and not as something supernatural, or all good.
However, I do believe God, or if you prefer the universe, constantly sustains us and is responsible for our existence. The whole universe is required in order for any one thing to exist. So one of the primary reasons I refer to the universe as God, is to give it the respect I think it deserves. Because of the authority it has over us, and because it is directly responsible for our existence.
A second important reason I think of the universe as God and why I find the pantheistic view to be necessary and why the distinction needs to be made from the atheistic view is to emphasize that I don’t view the universe as random, accidental, or meaningless. The whole is more than the sum of its parts so-to-speak. Though I do realize not all atheists view the universe as a cold, heartless machine. In a nut-shell, theists tend to give too much significance to what they call God and atheists too often don’t give the universe enough significance.
There seems to be these eternal, unchanging, everlasting concepts and ideas woven into the universe. For example, mathematical concepts. Mathematics is not something that could have been created or something that evolved. It just is what it is. Mathematical concepts would still hold true even if somehow the universe did not exist. Also consider the non-mathematical concepts, like the idea of a cup, or a shovel, or even something as complicated as a phone, all which seem to transcend time or a material existence. These ideas are really not inventions, but rather discoveries. In other words, these concepts go beyond creation and they go beyond any accidental, strictly mechanical universe. Now, if you were to sum up all these eternally fixed concepts and ideas, you get this one overall concept which was never created and which can never be destroyed. The universe is like this ultimate being, which provides us with these ultimate lessons, and reveals this ultimate story of life. That is what I find significant about the universe as a whole, whereas atheists may not.
This leads me to yet another profoundly important reason I choose to refer to the universe as God. These eternal concepts also include permanently fixed forces, which act as guiding forces. And I’m not just referring to the fundamental forces like gravity, but the more advanced, sophisticated forces like the feeling of guilt one has when they do wrong or the desire most people have to help others who are suffering. Therefore, the universe, as a whole, seems to provide guidance. It tends to use all sorts of forces to push us towards a balanced path. Though at times it does this with amazing cruelty and can be quite unforgiving. Sadly, the universe always punishes us when we try to reach towards the extremes. For instance, if we become too selfish then the universe, by its own laws of nature, responds in a way so as to reverse our greedy behavior, like causing us to lose friends who have been taught by the universe to hate selfish behavior. If we are too giving then again the universe will respond in such a way that pushes our excessive behavior back into balance, such as allowing others to take advantage of us when we are too generous.
The universe, as far as I can tell, has a good track record of rewarding those who follow a balanced path. It’s important to note that the universe does deal in probabilities. So even a person who lives a balanced life can have his house torn down by a tornado. But if one does follow a balanced path, it increases the odds that life, or nature, or the universe will respond in a kinder, more balanced way. Those who are out of balance tend to get knocked around by the universe to and fro until he or she becomes balanced. So in this way, I find that the universe, as a whole, does try to protect and guide us, much the way a theistic god might be characterized to do. I truly believe the universe, as I have described it, is the closest thing we will ever have to any god.
Now here are some more trivial reasons I refer to the universe as God. The term atheist or atheism puts a bad taste in most people’s mouths. It has such a negative connotation for most people. When anyone tells a theist he or she is an atheist, the theist will usually give a look of disbelief or disgust, as though the atheist is automatically a devil worshipper who has no reverence or respect for life. So I started referring to this meaningful, purposeful universe as God simply out of convenience. It was a lot easier and helped me to avoid uncomfortable debates or discussions with friends and extended family members who were devout Christians, because I’m very selective with whom I choose to discuss my views with, one-on-one. I’ve learned in the past that one can go in circles forever when discussing such a subject with others whose views are at opposite ends.
However, I believe the pantheistic view helps to bridge the gap between theists and atheists—a bridge which is desperately needed. Pantheism has many things in common with both atheism and theism. It’s a marriage or balanced fusion of the two. God may not have spoken to a man named Moses with an actual audible human-like voice to tell him thou shalt not kill, but the universe does communicate to man through his life experiences, his emotional sensations, and his mental processes, that it is wrong to kill another human in cold blood.
Last, but not least, there’s the emotional reason I choose to view the universe as God, and that is it simply feels good to do so. It just feels right. But many of us pantheist would agree that yes, we could get away with just calling it the universe. It’s just that it comes off a bit hollow and makes the universe sound a little cold. Calling the universe God, for me, sure helps to warm it up a bit.
by Guyus Seralius, October 2010
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Great article
It is very good debate. I personally disagree on one point. A special attribute which I associate with God is that he is super intelligent not because of tiredness or fatigue of his experience. He did not learned balanced path by passing through an long interval of time.He was all-knowing even before the creation of time, or Space n Time. While universe has taken a very long time to be created. If universe being a God teaches us lessons by our experience, then why these lessons are different in different stages of life. A lesson in childhood should be permanent till our death, but in reality we make big mistakes even in our old age. Why moses got his lesson “thou shalt not kill” in the his childhood. Why old-aged politicians do kill in wars even in the last stages of thier life.
In Quran , in verse (Al-Noor,24:35) God first call himself “Light” of earth and skies which give a false impression that god is in the form of light scattered all over the unverse. But then, to correct such understanding, he concentrate himself in a lamp, then lamp is confined in glass, and in the end glassed lamp is again concentrated in a star.
“Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable
of His Light is as (if there were) a niche and within it a lamp,
the lamp is in glass, the glass as it were a brilliant star”
(quran: (Al-Noor,24:35)”
Please read philosophical explaination of this verse in Allama Iqbal’s book “Reconstruction of Islamic Thaught” (Third Lecture)
Please give me short comment right here if you find it notable.
You and I seem to view and define God and/or the universe differently. I believe the universe has always existed and has no creation point of origin. I don’t believe God is an all knowing entity. To me, God is like one awesome, natural machine, which functions according to a set of natural laws.
I read some of Iqbal’s explanation of the third lecture as you requested. I personally view God to be both light and darkness. God, to me, is the Yin and Yang. God forces us to experience both pain and pleasure. Pain teaches and punishes us and pleasure teaches us and rewards us. Both of those experiences are needed to develop any and all life. I also view God to be everything and everywhere, not individualized. Nothing can be truly separate from God and God can not be separate from us in any way, in my view. So the analogy of the light within a glass lamp within a niche as a star would not properly illustrate my view of God. But it’s a nice poetic image that makes me thing of the highest peak of God’s goodness, which I believe does exist.
To address your questions regarding lessons taught by the universe and/or God, we all learn different lessons at different stages in life, due to our own unique path. Some learn early on that it is wrong to kill, because of his or her own personal life experiences, others learn it late in life, and some may never learn it within this particular lifetime. Some forget those lessons and have to relearn them, over and over. Some learn certain lessons and then distort or twist those lessons into false understandings as time moves forward. It’s all one big classroom. Each of us learn at different rates and in different ways, depending on the circumstances we are born into or the situation we are currently in at the moment. Sooner or later, though, in this lifetime or the next, we all come to know the lessons of life, and therefore, the lessons of God. As we learn these life lessons, we come ever closer to knowing God.
Guyus
So perhaps what God/The Universe is trying to impart to us is wisdom. I prefer a wise person to an intelligent person any day of the week.
Yes, absolutely! The universe/God is constantly trying to provide us with usable knowledge and with that knowledge may come wisdom–if the universe permits it. Wisdom is deeper and more meaningful than intelligence. That’s not to say intelligence doesn’t have its value and importance. It does. It can lead us towards wisdom. But one who has attended the top universities for years and years may still fail to gain any wisdom, while a poor young boy who lives on the streets may become as wise as they come. It all depends on who is destine to receive such wisdom from the universe, from God. Though I am not a Christian in the traditional sense, I view Jesus to have been a wise spiritual leader, based on the things he reportedly said. He was one of those who was fortunate enough, for a variety of reasons, to have received great wisdom.
I believe there have been many “super” wise persons throughout history and each left a stamp in the world, even if it was imparting a bit of wisdom in one other person. 🙂 I once would have said that sounded cheesy, but I’ve change a lot over my life journey. 🙂
Thank you,
LeRoyce
I don’t believe anyone is destined to become wise per say. I believe we all are born with the potential to become wise. But wisdom comes at a cost. It’s a cost that means you have to look at yourself honestly with no blinders on. That’s hard to do, but an old soul, intelligence, self evaluation, and empathy will set you on the right track. I think the hardest part is seeing what God in a natural sense wants you to learn and fill up the urn that is your soul. I love that this feels real to me. For the first time in my spiritual walk something feels right. 🙂
Thank you,
LeRoyce
Yes, wisdom definitely comes at a cost! I personally can’t get around the destiny part, for reasons that would be too lengthy to go into now, but I understand and respect your caution. To provide one quick example of my view on destiny, I believe it was predestined long before the planet earth was even formed that Lincoln would be shot on April 14, 1865. But let me just say that if one works hard to acquire wisdom and strives to use it for good, as you have described, it will increase the odds that his or her destiny will be exactly that. For instance, it may be your destiny to be inspired and to be motivated to find wisdom and to do well with it, due to your predestined nature, but not the destiny of another who has worked just as hard yet couldn’t rise above the obstacles. It just wasn’t meant to be. But we should all constantly strive towards wisdom and goodness as though we will indeed receive it, whether we soon receive it or not. Though I believe life is like a circle, and, therefore, we will all get a turn finding great wisdom and goodness, sooner or later. Everyone deserves a turn to do well. I believe the universe is the great equalizer.
Thank you for taking the time to write me back Guyus, I have a lot to think about. 🙂
Thank you,
LeRoyce
You bet! You’re very welcome. I enjoyed it! 🙂
Thanks.
Do you know that the universe was created?There is a possibility that it may have always existed and that the big bang may have just been a phenomenon where the universe was particularly dense and warm before it stretched.
I’m so new to Pantheism, that I didn’t even know the word existed until a couple of months ago, actually thought I came up with on my own, yeah the arrogance. But I do have a question, although not yet proven, there have been mathematical equations that extrapolate a Multi-verse scenario. If we do in fact find that there are multi-verses, would that mean that each is isolated from the others? Or maybe perhaps there is some type of communication.
That’s funny that you mentioned discovering the concept of pantheism before you knew the term, pantheism, even existed. The exact same thing happened to me years ago, around 1992-93, long before the public Internet was even available, which now provides a huge bounty of such information. I discussed that experience of discovering that the universe is God and that all is ultimately connected in one of my videos. I was living in a really small town at the time and discovered the concept after many, many long hours of deep contemplation. Though, I did have the influence of my own life experiences to draw upon, which includes TV and books I had read. It wasn’t until many years later that I learned that a word had been created to represent the concept and that others throughout history had also discovered the concept. That goes to show that truth is eternal and has a way of continuously popping up in the minds of men, again and again. Just think, you were one of those men! That still holds a great deal of value! Even though you and I were not the first to conceive the idea, we discovered it on our own, for our own reasons, which is damn near equal to being the first to conceive it.
To answer your question, I believe that all sub worlds, so called parallel universes, multiverses, etc. are all terms mainstream science has come up with in recent times to work around the false outdated idea that the universe is finite. The original meaning of the word uni-verse meant all that is–everything. The term universe is supposed to mean the overall master set of all subsets. So in my view, all sub worlds, parallel universes, and multiverses are all a part of the overall uni-verse. But to answer the heart of your question, the universe does have divisions, but these divisions can never be fully divided and separated. I don’t believe in most absolutes. For example, I don’t believe there is any such thing as absolute somethingness (there’s always some nothingness mixed in). The same can be said for absolute nothingness or absolute wholeness or absolute dividedness. It’s always, to some degree, mixed in with its opposite. So nothing can be completely isolated or divided from anything else. There will be some crossover or interaction or some communication between one thing and another, between one system and another, and between one world and another. I hope this was helpful. 🙂
Love it bruh, I’m looking forward to watching more of your You Tube videos!!
Thank you,
LeRoyce
Hmmm sound plausible, maybe the universe always was and the big bang was just like decorating ie wallpaper,lights, paint,carpets, ornaments etc as it became bored
I really enjoyed your reply. It is good to know that you are not worshipper of nature, but actually a supporter of obeying the laws of nature. I am not good in English but I will try my level best to compile my thoughts for this topic. I personally prefer the idea of absolute God for certain reasons, but I just want to discuss it with open mind without enforcing it. Now our theses are:
Universe-itself-God, or God-Outside-Universe
Which of both Gods is more beneficial to humanity?
I do not find any big risk believing in a God limited by the borders of Cosmos. We, while not able to cross the boundaries of even our solar system, should not be worried about God sitting outside of Cosmos. If we, during our evolutionary process, have not been able to capture God’s toe then why should we try to reach his head. God should be understood according to our level of understanding. But this rule is valid only for practical purpose. As for as the conceptual purpose is concerned, God should be placed where it should be.
Consider Abraham story in Quran:
When night outspread over him he saw a star and said, ‘This is my Lord.’ But when it set he said, ‘I love not the setters.’ When he saw the moon rising, he said, ‘This is my Lord.’ But when it set he said, ‘If my Lord does not guide me I shall surely be of the people gone astray.’ When he saw the sun rising, he said, ‘This is my Lord; this is greater!’ But when it set he said, ‘O my people, surely I am quit of that you associate. I have turned my face to Him who originated the heavens and the earth, a man of pure faith; I am not of the idolaters.’ (Al-an’aam: 6:76-79)
Abraham has been given only earthly tasks to handle, especially social ones. His search for God should be limited within the roundness of earth regarding fire, snake, tornadoes, volcanoes. But being a prophet he has shown higher intellect. In his opinion, anything controllable, reachable, perishable or destined to be died cannot be thought as God. So he focused his eyes directly on heavenly bodies. As a keen observer, disappearance of those heavenly bodies on specific time made him think otherwise. For him, believing God was not an Experimental Process, but a Thought Process. He did not need to step his foot on moon like Neil Armstrong and then reaching the conclusion that anything under feet can be considered as God. He also, getting disappointed by moon, did not need to pin his hopes to sun and so on. Without discovering and experimenting moon and sun, his intellect, just by a Thought-Process, took a great jump directly to God-outside-Universe. An Unseen God. An unattainable God. The point to be noted here is that God is not the only who is unseen, but also who is unattainable.
For me, God never sits on any specific floor of skyscraper of evolution.
From Allah, Lord of the Ascending Stairways (Al-ma’arij, 70:01)
Stairways continuously ascending with no end. We as human expect to see God on 20th floor and climb up the ladder (stairways) of our evolution. When we reach 20th floor, we do not find God there, because God has already climbed up to 21th floor, and this journey goes on. As we reach a specific rung of evolutionary ladder (stairways), God shifts to next one. His unassailability keeps us traveling and climbing our evolutionary stairways. If the attribute of “Ascending Stairways” is detached from His (God’s) being, God seized to God. That is why God call himself with the name “Ascending Stairways”
It is very safe and beneficial for man to place God where rungs appear to
be disappear. Unseen and unattainable God gives much much broader and unlimited vision of possibilities and probabilities. Unlimited God, so unlimited possibilities. Universe-itself-God can be conquered when the whole universe will be conquered. The day when whole cosmos will be under our feet and we will be standing on the boundaries of universe, what will happen? We will face a psychological shock where to go ahead. No time, no space, no field to discover myself. Ascending-Stairways-God always leaves a trail of platforms to exercise and actualize our potentialities. The theory of parallel universe or multiverse is a big hint to this trail of platforms. This concept has been defined by the term “Levels of paradise” which gives the meaning of unlimited paradise with no end. names “Awal ( The First)” and “Akhir(The Last”).. Note also following verse:
And a Garden (of paradise), The width whereof is
as the width of Heaven and earth (57:21)
The whole universe is paradise which is a creation of God not itself a God. When we will travel through this paradise ( cosmos), we will find new blessings of God like new materials, new weathers, new physics and chiemistry rule and new time and space concepts.
To find God, universe is the first important step to traverse. So I partially agree with your theory of Universe-itself-God. If you think that God wholly will be explored only discovering the caves of planets, it does not serve the purpose. We are supposed to discover the caves inside us along with those of planets. By Discovery-of-Inside, I in no case mean any type of meditation or other such spiritual exercise. By inner discovery, I just simply mean “Calling God by all his Names”. Names of God are actually the attributes of God. These attributes are his potentialities to the fullest. Calling God’s Names is a Quranic literary expression for reflecting these potentialities in us. We do not actually call his names by our tongue, we reflect or actualize God’s potentials/attributes inside us. Attributes of God have also been termed as “Colors of God” by Quran.
Such is the coloring of God, and who is better than God
in coloring? And to Him we are in service.
(Al-baqaraah,2:138)
Mawlana Rumi writes that when blacksmith puts a piece of iron in blazing coals to mould the iron, its color is black and it is cold. But when it absorbs the heat of firebrands it becomes red and hot. Now it can burn us. Basically it is iron but it has absorbed the attributes of fire. Now it can act like fire.
I just want to say that universe just teaches us the rules that belong to our physical body. Driver driving a car just can learn physical laws of car. But he cannot learn how to behave with his companions sitting with him.
Take an example traveling on road in mountains. The headlights of vehicle are like our wisdom. With the help of our wisdom we can see our way but to a certain limit. Beyond this limit, there is only horrifying dark. God does not sit with us to teach us every move of driving and traveling. We have to depend largely on our wisdom and mind. But where wisdom becomes helpless, there God help us installing traffic signboards on side of the road, warning us the serious dangers, and life-taking risks ahead like Road Narrows, Slippery Road, Quayside, Uneven Road, Possible Left Turn etc. On the road of life, God bestow us with revelation when our wisdom fails to see future danger.
Is there any evolutionary conscious jump (i.e., immediate evolution) by which wisdom learns strikingly fast. This is our daily life experience that we all are not cruelly handed over to learning just by experimentation. Learning carpenter does not learn only by experiments wasting a lot of time and material. If he gets guidance from a senior and learned carpenter, he would safe his time and big losses. So in our world, every lower level of intelligence learns by some upper level of intelligence: children form parents, students from teachers etc. So to save humanity from drastic and far-reaching destruction Super Intelligence sparks the brain of some human (prophet) to give a powerful flash to peep into the future of human and cosmos
We never see or meet God but we just see manifestations of his powers and strength through/by nature. When the people of Moses demanded to see God. There was just a lightning to make them realize that leave aside seeing God, can you bear to see little and petty manifestation of his power and strength.
And [recall] when you said, “O Moses, we will never believe
you until we see Allah (God) outright”; so the thunderbolt took
you while you were looking on. ( Al-baqarah, 2;55)
So there too God was different from universe. Natural disasters are just the manifestation of God
I agree with you on a few points. For example, I agree we can never fully know God/universe. I always try to express this view in my writings and in my videos. In my view, God and/or the universe will never be fully attainable, which has its pros and cons. Therefore, I don’t believe the cosmos can ever “be under our feet.” We will never be able to reach its edge and say, “Well, that’s all there is to go or know.” Contrary to what mainstream science believes and teaches, I believe the universe is infinite. It can never be fully understood or conquered. However, I don’t believe the possibilities are endless, that the universe, or if you prefer, God, can do or be anything. For example, God, the universe, could never make 1 + 2 = 36. Also, I believe there is no situation that can be without time and space. To me, that would be like saying you can have a triangle without two of its sides. It can’t be done. And, as I mentioned before, I view the universe/God to be both of light and darkness, of pain and pleasure, so I can’t share the view that “The whole universe is paradise.”
I agree with you when you say “We are supposed to discover the caves inside us along with those of planets.” Very true! I also like the “Colors of God” expression you gave. I’ve used that same expression in my own writings but never knew the Quran used it. That’s good to know. I view the color wheel to be an abstract depiction of God’s overall image. I also use the four seasons to express what God is as well as the Yin and Yang. These expressions help us to “see” God’s face or image. God’s nature or way is in everything. All parts of nature can be analogous to its image and way. This is why I have said in past writings that the ultimate Bible is nature itself. It is the ultimate book, its pages are full of answers, and therefore, it is the ultimate teacher. Some of the mechanisms the universe uses to teach us is by using humanoid teachers and spiritual guides, or as some prefer to call them, profits. All things are a part of the world. It all plays a part in our life experiences to help us develop and grow wiser. The universe teaches us both about the physical laws like for every action there is an equal, yet opposite reaction, as well as the non physical laws like it is wrong to kill and we should try and love one another. In my opinion, all of our wisdom (headlights) grows from our life experiences. Unfortunately, many are not so fortunate to be on a good path or to have strong headlights. They are placed in areas where the road signs, as you put it, are damaged or missing, and they suffer greatly for it. In some cases they even die due to a lack of needed guidance like the multitude of Egyptians and Israelites who died during the Exodus. Sadly, it’s the way of the world. But hopefully, they will take what they have learned into the next lifetime, for I believe in reincarnation to some degree. The universe is the ultimate classroom, each learning according to his or her own situation and design.
Again, it would seem that you and I view and define God and the universe differently, but I respect your freedom to hold different views. I don’t wish to force my views onto anyone, which is why I rarely debate them. I simply write them down or express them in videos to share with others who may or may not agree with them to possibly assist others who had not considered such views before. I also don’t normally discuss my views in great depths, one-on-one, with people online, because my time is so limited and the process is so inefficient. Hopefully, I will have more time in the future to do so.
Take care,
Guyus
Great article. Could speak to this guy for hours on this subject!
I read your comments. Actually we both are trying to analyze different facets of reality. Your words are giving a very good picture of cosmic aspect of reality. To avoid details, I will just try to be brief as under:
God works in three ways.
1. Through laws of nature.
2. Through reactionary psyche in humans.
3. Through a team of believers prepared by God Himself
1. Through laws of nature:
It is actually law of requital imposed by God through nature. This encircles only the physical laws affecting human’s physical existence. We put our finger in fire, it burns. We put medicine on finger, it gets healed. We are indulged in the habit of smoking, then cough, breathlessness and mucus would be the warnings and signs for us for coming hazardous consequences. If we come to mend our ways by quitting smoking, evil results waiting for us in future would stop coming to us. If we start taking medicine and good food after discontinuing smoking, bad results would change into good ones restoring our health. If we keep smoking, then remember that nature will take revenge making lung cancer our inevitable destiny.
Quran stresses on contemplating natural phenomena. Quran insists on a deep study of each and every object in nature. It convinces on reflecting upon physical laws and rules that govern all objects and heavenly bodies in nature
“Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and earth, and the alternation of
the night and the day, and the [great] ships which sail through the sea with that
which benefits people, and what God has sent down from the heavens of rain,
giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every
[kind of] moving creature, and [His] directing of the winds and the clouds
controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs for a people who use
reason” (Quran, 2:164).
“Do you not consider how God has created seven heavens in layers? And made the
moon therein a [reflected] light and made the sun a burning lamp? And God has
caused you to grow as a growth from the earth” (or other translation: ‘And God has caused you to grow from earth like a plant (in a mode of growth particular to you). (Quran, 71:17)
Quren does not explain scientific formulas but leaves on human intellect to ponder over nature.. Natural calamities are not the result of our sins, as our traditional followers of religion think, but they come to wake our latent potentialities up to make them actualized. An earthquake of certain power devastates every thing and kill millions of people in a city who’s inhabitants are known to be very religious , regular worshippers of God. But the earthquake of same power does not do a slightest damage where inhabitants of which were not even the believer of God. Actually God does not see who worship him. He is merely interested in who follows his laws. Believing in God in reality is believing in his laws, social or physical. Such destruction is an indication that people living on this piece of land have not yet conquered the forces of nature. If a population has engineered such buildings and safety systems that earthquake cannot make any harm to them, then God will be save them by putting his natural laws into operation. On the other hand, God worshippers will be razed to ground giving an ultimate lesson that they were in a deep slumber and never tried to evolve their mental faculties to control the natural forces. God,s destruction is in fact an construction inside human beings (i.e. actualization of their potentialities)
“Total destruction must come before any re-creation –
For in this way the problems of existence are resolved.
(Allama Iqbal)
2. Through human reactionary psyche:
Human societies normally runs and driven by forces of action and reaction. A minority with special negative qualities learns to exploit, rule and oppress the majority of innocent and simple people. The minority becomes master of their life and making them slave. Unfortunately such slaves, being ignorant of their inner strength, are always ready to be slave. Slavery becomes their habit. They do not even have a slightest wish or urge to get freedom from the influence of their masters. They pass their life in dormant state. So merciless rulers and exploiters take advantage of their weakness. Life becomes extremely hard and miserable for majority. Choices to live their life narrows down. All goes well until exploitation crosses the boundaries of their endurance. Sooner or later, a limit comes where human nerves start to react. If I slap again and again a person’s face, after a certain level of resiliency, he may become extremely dangerous for me. The anger, revenge and such other emotions compose reactionary psyche which works as a fuel for any revolution. Most of revolutions are actually the consequence of such reactionary psyche sometimes with leader and sometimes without leader.
In religious terms, as I put it, attributes of God keeps working in a way or other, on one side of planet or the other in every human being, even if there is no believer of God on earth. One can negate God but none can negate his potentials, strength and abilities to do good or evil. An individual always confesses that what he is, but he may not confess who made him so. What Quran says?
“[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels (i.e. cosmic forces), “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.” (38:71-72)
“Breathed into him of My [created] soul” is actually giving of limited potentialities to human from unlimited (infinite) source of potentialities (Soul, Spirit) of God Himself.
Remember that clay is not simply dough of wet clay but actually the extract (chemistry) of clay. Moreover bowing down of Angels in front of Adam was in fact the bowing down of cosmic forces before homo sapiens. It simply implies that man can conquer and control the natural forces. Quran further says:
“And [by] the self (psyche or ego) and Him Who perfected him in proportion; And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness. He is indeed successful who causes it to grow. And indeed he fails who corrupts it” (91:8-10).
Here right or wrong itself was not inspired in human but just the its potential was given to human. So every body was given the ability of doing wrong and right. Wisdom and conscience was also given (according to other verses of Quran) to choose one of these two alternatives with knowledge of their results (success or failure).
So every man is filled with God’s attributes. One person choose to test his potential to be cruel, dictator, exploiter. He actually takes a handful for water from the flowing stream of God’s potentialities (spirit). When bloodthirsty scoundrels are busy in looting, destructing and wiping out populations, cites and civilizations, then different facets of God’s spirit (his potentialities) are also being grown slowly and calmly and silently in other members or groups of society. You can say that if God makes himself visible in oppressor, then he also manifests himself in the bodies of innocents. God as a reactionary force flames the human emotions and creates an eruption of anger, revenge, self defense and self preservation. The waves of terror, agitation and unrest and turmoil are reactionary manifestation of God through human bodies to teach horrible lessons to rogues and to stop their vicious game of brutalities. But it’s all by reaction, not on conscious level. By these revolts and insurgencies, both parties neither discover God nor explore themselves in totality. They just self-actualize themselves and discover God in parts. So their character and strength for life also improves in parts. Such discovery of God is an unbalance discovery of God creating unbalance personalities.
The Quranic God’s names Al-Qahar(The Subduer), Al-Muqtadir (The Dominant), Al-Qawwiyy(The Strong) are the hard attributes of God which express themselves somewhere on earth in the guise of Hitler or Mussolini.
On the other side God works inside suppressed people too as Al-Muntaqim (The Avenger), Al-Hasīb (The Bringer of Judgment), Al-Qābid (The Restrainer, The Straightener) in the guise of Marx, Lenin, Mandela and Hogo Shavaiz.
One more line: if some society is lifeless, coward, without any determination and purpose, then God wipes such people out from earth. The nation which looses the capacity of living, death is made the destiny of them.
“Your body has no soul. No wonder if your sighs are not answered. The Creator is disgusted with a soulless frame. God is all life and He is God of those who are alive.”
(Allama Iqbal)
Also:
“The living God is in search of a living soul. A dead prey does not deserve an eagle’s assault.” (Allama Iqbal)
3. Through a team of believers prepared by God Himself:
This is a very long topic. It, being a complex topic, needs a lot of details. In future we will discuss it comprehensively.
God wants to speed up his law of requital, being cosmic and reactionary law of requital very slow. For this purpose, he prepares super humans with the help of revelation. Revelation is actually a short cut to open the mysteries of man and universe. Despite of learning from slow evolution of cosmos and lethargic evolution of wisdom, he makes us to take a long jump to facts and realities of life.
The Sun, the Moon, the Stars, methought, would keep me company,
Fatigued, they dropped out in the twists and turns of space
One leap by Love ended all the pother(heated debate),
I fondly imagined, the earth and sky were boundless.
(Allama Iqbal)
Actually God has some responsibilities on his shoulders. But he wants them to be fulfilled by his believers. He can fulfill those responsibilities by himself, but it will take very long time period.
“And verily, a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you reckon”
(Quran, 22:47)
“He manages and regulates (every) affair from the heavens to the earth; then it (affair) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning (i.e. reckoning of our present world’s time” (Quran, 32: 5)
“The angels (i.e. cosmic forces) and the Rûh [Jibrîl (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years.” (Quran 70: 4)
So God’s measurements are very prolonged. So he prepares a team of his believers with strong conviction who implement his program to fulfill his responsibilities. Muslims (submitters) on individual level and on collective level (i.e. on Islamic State level) try their level best to fulfill his responsibilities Now question arises, what are his responsibilities? Again come to God’s Quranic names. These names are actually his responsibilities/potentialities/attributes which Muslims or Muslim State attempt to reflect within them. Now you can map God-man-Islamic state relationship as under:
Ar-Razzāq (The Provider): Who allocate and disburse resources for existence. So Islamic State also should also provide resource for physical existence and ethical existence (i.e. for development of personality and character
Al-Adl (The Utterly Just): Who is a greatest Judge and whose judgment is judged on just. So courts in Islamic State should also provide Jutice to everyone.
At-Tawaab (The Ever Returning): The one who accepts repentance from all those who want to come back on to right path (Allah Almighty Path) and start working according to His laws. So there should be proper space and flexibility in the laws of Islamic State that criminals can come back to normal life.
Al-Mujeeb (The Responsive, The Answerer): He responds to all calls made by man. So Islamic State should also listen to and respond to call for help and assistance.
Al-Hasib (The Bringer of Judgment): Every one is answerable to Him. So every man should be answerable to Islamic State and its courts etc.
As-Samad (The Self-Sufficient): He is self-sufficient and everything else is dependent on Him for its survival, nourishment and development. So Islamic State should be self-sufficient like a rock that everyone rushes towards this Islamic State for seeking safety and protection from life-calamities or problems.
Al-Wali (ThePatron and The Helper): God is the protector and guardian of people who are righteous and guard the Divine Laws. So Islamic State should be protector and guardian of all people and their rights.
When God prepare a man by his revelation, then the personality which emerges under the influence of revelation is most balanced personality in a specific time and space. We are supposed to reflect and actualize all God’s names (attributes) in harmony and in a balanced way. By this approach we can travel from man to superman and superman to superhuman.
Just give a short response. I know your time is very precious. I am writing to you just to refine my ideas and yours too.
Thanks
I agree that God/Universe works in the three ways you listed. I of course would consider the second and the third to be subsets of the first, since I view those to be included in the laws of nature.
Your first paragraph was excellent! I couldn’t agree more! If you’ve read some of my other essays, then you may already know that I have said very similar things.
The following quote is beautifully expressed:
“Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and earth, and the alternation of
the night and the day, and the [great] ships which sail through the sea with that
which benefits people, and what God has sent down from the heavens of rain,
giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every
[kind of] moving creature, and [His] directing of the winds and the clouds
controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs for a people who use
reason” (Quran, 2:164).
I’m happy to learn that the “Quran stresses on contemplating natural phenomena. . . . on a deep study of each and every object in nature. . . . upon physical laws and rules that govern all objects and heavenly bodies in nature.” I would only question the importance the Quran places in those studies in comparison to those on the supernatural aspects of the Quranic God.
It’s also nice to know that you believe that “natural calamities are not the result of our sins, as our traditional followers of religion think, but they come to wake our latent potentialities up to make them actualized.” I very much agree. They serve a valuable purpose in the grand scheme of things. Natural calamities are unfortunately necessary evils which help to make our world and our lives work. Though I don’t agree that “total destruction must come before any re-creation.” To me that’s too extreme. I believe that when we move towards the extremes in nature (too fast, too slow, too hot, too cold, too many friends, no friends, too much consumption, too little consumption, total destruction, etc., negative outcomes almost always result. But I would agree that degrees of destruction must occur before degrees of reconstruction or repairs can be made.
Your description and examples of human reactionary psyche are all very well stated. But to briefly mention where we may disagree, I wouldn’t compare or equate angels as described and used in the Quran to cosmic forces. I don’t think the original author would see those as synonymous. The act of speaking to angels or cosmic forces personifies God too much. In my view of God, He/She/it does communicate to beings/forms of life by means of their own thoughts and life experiences, but never directly as a man speaks to a man, unless you consider any and all men to be a temporal, nucleic, example of God as I do. Also, I wouldn’t interpret “clay” to mean the extracted chemistry of clay. It’s hard to say whether you and possibly others are making efforts to make the two fit to modernize its meaning. Though, it is very possible that the original author and/or authors intended to use “clay” as a mere metaphor. Either way, I still don’t believe it is possible for man to ever fully “conquer and control the natural forces,” or that it’s what that passage is referring to. In the Quran passage you provided, I believe it was simply saying God instructed his angels to bow down before man, who was created from the elements of earth, in humility and submission and in reverence. The authors were obviously trying to illustrate the importance of man and his valuable relationship with God. Here is where we can agree; yes, I believe all humans are comprised of elementary particles, which in of themselves are mysterious and remarkable, that God the universe, by it’s own laws (physical and non physical) materialized man, and that man is to be greatly respected and admired, for he is one of the leading characters within this cosmic play we all find ourselves in.
You explained, “So every body was given the ability of doing wrong and right. Wisdom and conscience was also given . . . to choose one of these two alternatives with knowledge of their results.” I once heard or read a philosophical phrase that I’ve always agreed with. It was something along the lines of, “If a man does wrong, then he truly didn’t know it.” Think about this, if he truly, truly knows in his heart it is wrong, how could he allow himself to do it? The only reason a man allows himself to do wrong is if he feels that the wrong action is somehow an acceptable course, which means he truly doesn’t know better. I don’t believe all men are given the wisdom or the consciousness to know right from wrong or to truly know the full extent of their actions or their results. Also, it’s important to point out that ultimately we humans don’t get to choose that which stimulates us to choose the way we do. So in one sense, we humans do get to choose what fulfills our desires, but in another sense, we don’t get to choose how we choose. It’s kind of a paradox. All life forms are ultimately like puppets, doing as the universe dictates. A person’s genetic makeup and his upbringing, together, shape his way and destiny.
I agree with you that “every man is filled with God’s attributes.” Oh, how true that is! “The flowing stream of God’s potentialities” runs through us all at all times. There is never a moment when it doesn’t. Though, this stream is part dark and part light and all the shades in between. At times, the darker, negative attributes dominate, and at other times, the brighter, positive ones do.
I’m glad, yet surprised to hear you say, “You can say that if God makes himself visible in oppressor, then he also manifests himself in the bodies of innocents. God as a reactionary force flames the human emotions and creates an eruption of anger, revenge, self defense and self preservation. The waves of terror, agitation and unrest and turmoil are reactionary manifestation of God through human bodies to teach horrible lessons to rogues and to stop their vicious game of brutalities.” I’m surprised you believe that, because I don’t think most who believe in the Abrahamic or Quranic God would ever ascribe negative attributes to God in any way. As you already know, I do, for God is the positive and the negative intertwined, in my view.
I enjoyed reading about the names of the Quranic God you provided, which convey the main attributes of God and which are expressed in different historical figures, good and bad. I agree, God/Universe is all of those; The Subduer, The Dominant, The Strong, The Avenger, The Bringer of Judgment, The Restrainer, The Straightener. And sadly, there are those who do have an unbalanced understanding of God and who only possess or know these attributes in parts.
To quickly comment on Allama Iqbal’s quote, “The Creator is disgusted with a soulless frame. God is all life and He is God of those who are alive.” The word “disgusted” is a bit strong. I believe the living and non living parts of the universe (to me, God is the living and the non living) react negatively to those without drive and purpose, who are in a manner of speaking “lifeless” or “soulless,” simply due to the laws of nature. Another quote you gave that corresponds is “The living God is in search of a living soul. A dead prey does not deserve an eagle’s assault.” In other words, God is not interested in the lifeless just as an eagle is not interested in a dead animal. I am somewhat familiar with this Abrahamic view. It doesn’t fully correlate with my view of God as the universe. Certain life forms fail to find the grace of God/Universe and the Universe/God at times doesn’t lead them to its grace or good side. If one lacks drive and liveliness, it is ultimately the result of God/Universe.
In your discussion of the third way in which God works, through a “team of believers prepared by God Himself,” you say “God wants to speed up his law of requital, being cosmic and reactionary law of requital very slow.” Again, using terms like “wants” implies a personified God. In my view of God, it does “want” but only through our wants and by the potential energy of the universe. For example, a rubber band “wants” to be released. But to address your point, I agree that God/Universe has ways of allowing for leaps in knowledge and development. God does in fact make us take big jumps to knowing certain facts and realities of life. This is all very true. A wasp “knows” how to be a wasp right after it hatches, thanks to the way the universe works.
You go on to say, “For this purpose, he prepares super humans with the help of revelation. Revelation is actually a short cut to open the mysteries of man and universe. Despite of learning from slow evolution of cosmos and lethargic evolution of wisdom, he makes us to take a long jump to facts and realities of life.” I don’t believe in any form of the super natural. All things and all actions must coincide with nature. It must go hand-in-hand with evolution. God/Universe uses evolution and the natural laws to fulfill all purposes of life and the universe. But this natural way may actually involve allowing some to make great leaps in knowledge. It’s not possible to circumvent the natural mechanics of the universe, which is the very nature of God.
You explained that “God has some responsibilities on his shoulders. But he wants them to be fulfilled by his believers.” In my view, God/Universe/The Almighty is always responsible for all things. All responsibilities always lay upon its shoulders, to use the same metaphor. The Supreme Being’s responsibilities are always fulfilled by all living things and non living things, by the believers and the non believers, by the evil doers and by the righteous. I am one of his tools and so are you. We have no choice and neither does God. But, if you are referring to “a team of believers with strong convictions who implement” the positive, good aspects of the overall, universal program, then yes, I believe they do exist and are made possible by God and are given unusual levels of insight and knowledge.
Your mapping of the God-man-Islamic state relationship under the Quranic names and attributes of God was very well put and very interesting. They are all good attributes to emulate. Unfortunately, I doubt most followers do, as is the case with any and all religions or ideologies. But we should all keep trying.
I’m not sure why you are including many of these quotes, unless it’s merely to share your views or to see how they compare to my own views. It could become quite a laborious and time consuming task for both of us to go from one quote to the next in the Quran to see how they compare with my views or those of pantheists. Is your goal to persuade me to drop my pantheistic views and replace them with those found in the Quran or are you simply trying to show how similar they may actually be? I’m not sure what your motivation is.
I’m happy to say I think you have a healthy interpretation of the Quran, even if some of those interpretations may have never been fully intended by its authors. In many ways, they are similar to pantheism, and in many other ways they are not. This is to be expected with all ideologies. There will never be complete agreement even among individuals and practitioners of the same religion or school of thought. I’m guessing most who follow the teachings of the Quran would not agree with many of your interpretations, but when I treat the word “God” as a pantheists, while I read your interpretations, I find myself in much agreement.
Aside from minor English grammar mistakes, which is quite understandable considering English is not your first language, you are a very good writer who can express your views very well. Also, you have remained completely civil and have so far set an excellent example of how one should properly discuss such a sensitive subject as God with another whose views differ somewhat. That’s rare, so I’m impressed!
Okay, I wish I had time to cover more, but I must return to my responsibilities. Take care,
Guyus
Sorry I am very late in responding you because of different home problems. I will try to answer you on point-to-point basis. It got very lengthy so you may find it a little ill-arranged. Next time we will chat in the section of “Socialism and Capitalism, A balanced Approach”. This is my favorite topic.
Conversion from one religion to another:
I am also not a religious person like you. So there is no question of converting you from one religion to another. It is neither conversion nor negation of your ideas but extension of your thought. It is opening more windows to peep into reality. I am not writing to you for the purpose of debate or argument. I happened to comment on you merely for the reason that you are among the people who prefer to think. Thinking is the most important aspect of human personality which draws him near to God. I am not negating you on point to point basis. I am just expressing myself what I know. It does not make any difference to me how you take God. I am just interested in how many different ways God can be understood. Quran is giving so many facets or aspects of God/reality, so I am proffering them to widen our thought. Islam itself is not religion, rather it is against religion. Islam itself is a challenge to religion. Please readww.tolueislam.org/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm by Ghulam Ahmed Pervez according to your comfort and convenience.
My most of thoughts are borrowed from Quran, Iqbal, Ghulam Ahmed Pervez. But I am not blind follower. Ghulam Ahmed Pervez(www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/parwez.htm) was first person who made me interested in Quran and Iqbal. After reading them I became interested in the modern view of Quran. You may blame me to use many of terminologies and model sentences written by these two personalities, but I always try to understand Quran according to contemporary knowledge as suggested by these personalities.
My first approach to your site:
The very first video of yours I watched was “Socialism and Capitalism, A balanced Approach”. I wanted to analyze the concept of Mixed Economy. The video gave me very brief and excellent explanation of mixing and balancing of both leading economical systems. In search of written script of stated video, I came across your blog where the very titles of your articles made me interested in the blog. The topics like “The Positive v/s The Negative”, “Heaven v/s Hell, do they exist” “Be balanced” have been discussed in Quran very deeply. Even though I have not read all of your articles yet, but the main thing which attracted me was the direction of your thought. You are strolling around much closely to Quran. It is not important what Quran says. The important thing is: to what direction the human mind is traveling. Quran just throw light like a torch to see your way and direction and rectify, falsify or prune your ideas.
Quran and its author:
As Bible is considered (perhaps) to be written by humans, Quran is not written by any human author. God himself is its Writer. Proof has been provided by God Himself.
“Do they not attentively consider the Quran? If it had been from any besides God, they would certainly have found therein many contradictions.” (Quran 4:82).
As I have told you that God’s knowledge is not the result of fatigue, exhaustion, tiredness, wearness of his experience (at least this concept does not satisfy me). So what he says in the first verse of Quran, the same is preached in the last one. No contradictions. This is very special feature of Quran.
“There is no god but He, the Ever-Living, the One who takes care of all that exists.
Nothing can make Him drowsy or make Him sleep
His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence
unless He allows it? He knows what (appears to His creatures as) before or after or behind them, While they will never have any of His Knowledge unless He wills.
His Chair ( of governance, throne) contains the heavens and the earth,
and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them
for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)”.(Quran: 2:255)
Concentrate on above verses regarding drowsiness, sleep, fatigue. Another special feature
Quran’s unmatchable laws:
Quran is impossible to imitate. It is impossible to for human capacity to produce the wording and literary style, reason and logic of its futuristic laws and harmony between cosmic and social laws of Quran.
Say: “If the mankind and the jinns (anything hidden) were together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.” [Quran 17:88]
Or they say, “He (Prophet) forged it (the Qur’an).” Say: “Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than God (to your help), if you speak the truth!” [Quran 11:13]
Even Muslims would not agree with me:
I admit that such interpretation would not be acceptable even my own fellow muslims. Actually there are two trends/approaches of understanding Quran.
1. Traditional Approach
2. Modernist Approach
Both will be explained later. A traditional mind certainly could not agree with modernist thought. Traditional interpreter searches for meanings of Quran from past while modernist searches in modern knowledge.
Traditional view of Quran:
a. Literal or plain meanings of Quranic terminologies:
Traditional thinker takes the staff of Moses as physical Staff, Splitting of moon as physical tear of moon of sky. “Birth of Adam from Clay” is taken as Making of Statue of Clay” Angels are considered like birds-like flying objects with big wings. Paradise as physical garden and hell as physical fire But actually the case is quite different.
b. Sources of law:
Traditional Islam draws its laws from four sources: Quran, Sunnah (Sayings and
Actions of Prophet Muhammad), Ijmaa (Consensus of opinion), Qiyas
(Analogical deduction).
Quran and Sunnah both are considered to be permanent, while Ijma and Qiyas are methodologies to deal with the situations which are not mentioned in Quran and Sunnah both. Both methodologies cross not only the boundries of Quran but they both are bound to be limited by sunnah too. This factor created the element of Conservatism, Traditionalism and Past-Worship in Islam.S
Modern view of Quran:
You are correct that the followers of my own religion will not accept such interpretation. This factor is because of difference of Traditional Islam n Modernist Islam, or Arabic Islam n Non-Arabic Islam. The topic of Arabic and Non-Arabic Islam needs of lot of details and historical description and I do not qualify for this. But as for as modernization of Islam is concerned, I would like to say that Quran left a wide space to modernize itself according to demand of times.
There are two types of modernization
1. Modernization of Law
2. Modernization of Meanings
Modernization of Law:
Here the point to be noted is that interpretation of law using all above is made by theocracy. Now imagine hundreds of sects, so hundreds of theocratic authorities on every nook and cornor. So hundreds of different laws, decrees and verdicts. No sect accepts the law of other. If theocratic authority on one sect criticize the law or believes of other, then other is prepare to shed the blood the members of this sect.
Other important thing is that Though Ijtehaad (Ijma and Qiyas) apparently opens a window for evolution of law but it was made bound to Sunnah. So law got stagnant in the age of prophet. And muslim became traditionalist, inflexible, unprogressive.
Modernist draws law from following sources
Quran (Basic Laws by God):
Quran: Here Quran is supposed to be complete source of Basic Law. As far as the Basic Law is concerned, nothing is left by Quran. This Basic Law is considered to be Permanent for ever.
Ijtehaad (Making of By-Laws by human intellect):
Quran left no Basic Law but intentionally left those By-Laws which were destined to be changed with the process of time and evolution of human societies, customs, traditions and psyche. Such By-Laws will be decided by human intellect itself. This human intellect will not be individual but will be under the discipline of collective wisdom which we, in this modern age, call Islamic State. Here the final authority of interpretation of Quranic laws and modification/amendment of By-Laws lies not with theocracy but the central authority of Islamic State who make laws with the consultation of intellectuals, jurists etc of society. Intellectuals are not permitted to give their verdicts or decrees individually. They just give advice to central authority through the mechanism whatever Islamic State has made (like parliament, departments, courts etc). Final decision is only given by Central Authority ( or by Government officials like Judges, Chiefs, or other bureaucrats) which have given specific powers by Central Authority itself)
So this way, Sunnah was first ijtehaad (making of By-Laws by prophet himself) in accordance with civilization, customs and pysche of that time. By-Laws can never be permanent but always destined to be change with the process of time. But what happens when prophet passes away. Theocracy view likes to stick to all Basic-Laws passed by prophet in his life. but modern interpreters’ view is quite different. All the authorities to introduce, reform, modify which were in the hands of prophet in his life automatically transfers to Caliph who takes charge of Quranic System of State. Caliph is actually the caretaker of prophet. So all the authorites of Prophet goes to Caliph and in the ssame way , all the duties and obligation which muslims were bound to discharge for Prophet shifts to Caliph. Now every Caliph order becomes the Prophet order. And every honor and respect and followship paid to Caliph is actually the honor of prophet. was to change by caliphs to come according to demands of time. Caliph was/is just bound to make laws within the boundaries of Quran and with the consultation of learned people.
But our traditional view of Islam made Sunnah an unchangeable law which has stopped the evolution of Islamic law for ever. Windows of Ijma and Qiyaas were also made bound to Sunnah so both failed to develop Islamic law.
Briefly speaking, whatever Quran wanted to be permanent has stated in its pages, and whatever Quran wanted to be changed with time was intentionally left by Quran.
Qur’aan and Sunnah go hand in hand together as our sources of legislated law
Modernization of Meanings:
Quran has two types of verses:
Muhkamaat (Having precise meaning), Mutashaabihaat (Allegorical)
Quran has very important verse about this.
“It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise – they are the foundation of the Book – and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, “We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord.” And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.” ( )
The verses which are allegorical/Symbolic/figurative/pictographic etc. have enormously great space for modernization of meanings. Such verses are very much futuristic in their nature, and make us aware of future of man, society , universe and new atmosphere which will be created after death and new dimensions which will be opened after leaving this 3D world. Modern human knowledge will keep exploring them with the passage of time. So, as Ghulam Ahmed Pervez states that Best interpreter of Quran will be last man in the last era/period, when human knowledge will fully be exposed to expose such Quranic verses. So it is very big mistake to take plain/literal meanings of such verses.
The human mind cannot operate otherwise than on the basis of previous experiences – that is to say, on the basis of perceptions and cognitions already recorded in that mind. Since the metaphysical ideas of religion relate, by virtue of their nature, to a realm beyond the reach of human perception or experience – how can they be successfully conveyed too us? How can we expected to grasp ideas which have no counterpart, not even a fractional one, in any of the apperceptions which we have arrived at empirically? So by means of loan-images derived from our actual – physical or mental – experiences through a parabolic illustration, Quran explains his futuristic ideas.
Quranic verses give a graphic description of Doomsday and Resurrection. A terrifying scene of cosmic upheaval is painted before man. Symbols of stability such as the sun, the stars, the mountains and oceans “fold up”, “lose their lustre”, “vanish” and “boil over”. Unprecedented events such as the herding together of wild beasts occur. A new order and world is unveiled where every soul is rewarded or punished according to its merit.
This is the assertion of Qur’anic scholars like Sayyid Qutb and Muhammad Asad.
“Side by side with these allegories relating to man’s life after death we find in the Qur’ãn many symbolical expressions referring to the evidence of God’s activity. Owing to the limitations of human language – which arise from the inborn limitations of the human mind – this activity can only be circumscribed and never really described. Just as it is impossible for us to imagine or define God’s Being, so the true nature of His creativeness – and, therefore, of His plan of creation – must remain beyond our grasp. But since the Quran aims at conveying to us an ethical teaching based, precisely, on the concept of God’s purposeful creativeness, the latter must be, as it were, “translated” into categories of thought accessible to man. Hence the use of expressions which at first sight have an almost anthropomorphic hue, for instance, God’s “wrath” (ghadab) or “condemnation”; His “pleasure” at good deeds or “love” for His creatures; or His being “oblivious” of a sinner who was oblivious of Him; or “asking” a wrongdoer on Resurrection Day about his wrongdoing; and so forth. All such verbal “translations” of God’s activity into human terminology are unavoidable as long as we are expected to conform to ethical principles revealed to us by means of a human language; but there can be no greater mistake than to think that these “translations” could ever enable us to define the Undefinable.”
For example in the following verse, quran calls the concept of paradise as a parable/example
The example of Paradise, which the righteous have been promised, is [that] beneath it rivers flow. Its fruit is lasting, and its shade. That is the consequence for the righteous, and the consequence for the disbelievers is the Fire. (Quran: 13:35)
You yourself are convinced that paradise and heel are the states of mind. I am fully agreed with you. Quran states this fact about hell as:
“It is the fire of God, (eternally) fueled, which mounts directed at the hearts.
(Quran:104: 8)
God is the Source of Soft and Hard Attributes:
Yes. Rather than using the words “intertwined existence of negative n positive”, it is more suitable to use the words Hard n Soft attributes (or opposite attributes). Most of the social problems arise when a Army commander tries to be commander even at home for his children despite of being father. A leader who wants whole nation to follow law fails to impose the same law on his family and friends. A teacher could not impose the discipline on his own children because of fatherly love which he wants to implement on his students. If to help a wretched person, to be raheem or kareem is necessary , then to stop the hand of cruel or exploiter, it is necessary to be Jabbar and Qahar.
Calamities are necessary evil:
I think it is not proper to use the words of “Necessary Evil” for calamities. What I understand is that it is the series or sequence of obstacles which we must cross or surmount to reach the target of Super-Humanity. When we face such calamities, two types of loss we suffer: Physical and Emotional. To response both types of losses, man is supposed to prepare himself by exploring INSIDE of him. When an earthquake takes place, then on one hand certain types of strengths or potencies relating to cosmos and physical sciences are tested and created by God him. On the other hand, other kind of might and power relating to emotions, psychology and ethics are given opportunity to be elevated. I will like to put it as under:
When an earthquake occurs
a. Intelligence level of man is checked by God/nature if man has developed his capabilities concerning building, their building materials, and other engineering expertise, or they are just habitual of living lazy life and wants to reside always in mud-made homes without getting the benefits of surprising materials and energy resources created by God on earth, planets, sun and other vastnesses of universe.
b. Injured are checked if they have developed their power of endurance when they get severely injured in such natural disaster.
c. Disabled are checked if they have ability to live with their amputated organs and have emotional strength to improve some other ability to work with their cut-off hands or legs etc.
d. People saved from such disaster are checked if they have created ethical powers inside themselves to help and reduce the miseries of affected people.
e. Doctors are checked if they have improved the qualities of mercy, pity and sympathy, dutifulness and wisdom for health and medicine.
f. Human rescue powers are checked that how much risk, sacrifice, and intelligence they can offer to save lives of such miserable people.
and so on.
So this way nature (or God through this nature) offer opportunities, platforms, battlefields full of hurdles, obstacles to wake up human potentialities (intelligence and ethics). Quran expresses this thought as:
“We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast”. ( 2:155)
And Iqbal put the same Quranic subject in a very beautiful style in Urdu.
God bring you acquainted with some storm!
No billow in your sea break in foam,
(OR no flutter is in the waves of your sea)
Whenever we face storm, a ruffle or splash is created in the waves of our inside sea so that we get acquainted with our SELF and its possibilities (Iqbal called this self or ego as KHUDI).
Leaps in knowledge and development:
It is very philosophical topic. I do not qualify to discuss this topic. But one thing that surprise me is the text of Quran: Fixed text, never changed since 1500 years. A slightest change could not be made in Quranic text during all this time. God himself promised to save its text and he accomplished this task by the hands of his believers. He made arrangement through his prophet to write a master copy of Quran and then a lot of copies were prepared by prophets’ colleagues. Surprising thing is how prophet managed to remember this text. There is no slightest mistake or change in this text by him/anyone.
Quran states that Quran is revealed on the heart of prophet (surely a symbolic expression). It is revealed through an angel called Gebrail (again a symbolic expression for cosmic force which causes Quran to reveal). Now how I imagine is that exact words are revealed by some cosmic force which flashes some certain area of human brain and ignites the deepest memory area in human brain with great (if not full) understanding so that he can never forget it. This is what I imagine. God knows better.
Sorry I am very late in responding you because of different home problems. I will try to answer you on point-to-point basis. It got very lengthy so you may find it a little ill-arranged. Next time we will chat in the section of “Socialism and Capitalism, A balanced Approach”. This is my favorite topic.
Conversion from one religion to another:
I am also not a religious person like you. So there is no question of converting you from one religion to another. It is neither conversion nor negation of your ideas but extension of your thought. It is opening more windows to peep into reality. I am not writing to you for the purpose of debate or argument. I happened to comment on you merely for the reason that you are among the people who prefer to think. Thinking is the most important aspect of human personality which draws him near to God. I am not negating you on point to point basis. I am just expressing myself what I know. It does not make any difference to me how you take God. I am just interested in how many different ways God can be understood. Quran is giving so many facets or aspects of God/reality, so I am proffering them to widen our thought. Islam itself is not religion, rather it is against religion. Islam itself is a challenge to religion. Please readww.tolueislam.org/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm by Ghulam Ahmed Pervez according to your comfort and convenience.
My most of thoughts are borrowed from Quran, Iqbal, Ghulam Ahmed Pervez. But I am not blind follower. Ghulam Ahmed Pervez(www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/parwez.htm) was first person who made me interested in Quran and Iqbal. After reading them I became interested in the modern view of Quran. You may blame me to use many of terminologies and model sentences written by these two personalities, but I always try to understand Quran according to contemporary knowledge as suggested by these personalities.
My first approach to your site:
The very first video of yours I watched was “Socialism and Capitalism, A balanced Approach”. I wanted to analyze the concept of Mixed Economy. The video gave me very brief and excellent explanation of mixing and balancing of both leading economical systems. In search of written script of stated video, I came across your blog where the very titles of your articles made me interested in the blog. The topics like “The Positive v/s The Negative”, “Heaven v/s Hell, do they exist” “Be balanced” have been discussed in Quran very deeply. Even though I have not read all of your articles yet, but the main thing which attracted me was the direction of your thought. You are strolling around much closely to Quran. It is not important what Quran says. The important thing is: to what direction the human mind is traveling. Quran just throw light like a torch to see your way and direction and rectify, falsify or prune your ideas.
Quran and its author:
As Bible is considered (perhaps) to be written by humans, Quran is not written by any human author. God himself is its Writer. Proof has been provided by God Himself.
“Do they not attentively consider the Quran? If it had been from any besides God, they would certainly have found therein many contradictions.” (Quran 4:82).
As I have told you that God’s knowledge is not the result of fatigue, exhaustion, tiredness, wearness of his experience (at least this concept does not satisfy me). So what he says in the first verse of Quran, the same is preached in the last one. No contradictions. This is very special feature of Quran.
“There is no god but He, the Ever-Living, the One who takes care of all that exists.
Nothing can make Him drowsy or make Him sleep
His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence
unless He allows it? He knows what (appears to His creatures as) before or after or behind them, While they will never have any of His Knowledge unless He wills.
His Chair ( of governance, throne) contains the heavens and the earth,
and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them
for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)”.(Quran: 2:255)
Concentrate on above verses regarding drowsiness, sleep, fatigue. Another special feature
Quran’s unmatchable laws:
Quran is impossible to imitate. It is impossible to for human capacity to produce the wording and literary style, reason and logic of its futuristic laws and harmony between cosmic and social laws of Quran.
Say: “If the mankind and the jinns (anything hidden) were together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.” [Quran 17:88]
Or they say, “He (Prophet) forged it (the Qur’an).” Say: “Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than God (to your help), if you speak the truth!” [Quran 11:13]
Even Muslims would not agree with me:
I admit that such interpretation would not be acceptable even my own fellow muslims. Actually there are two trends/approaches of understanding Quran.
1. Traditional Approach
2. Modernist Approach
Both will be explained later. A traditional mind certainly could not agree with modernist thought. Traditional interpreter searches for meanings of Quran from past while modernist searches in modern knowledge.
Traditional view of Quran:
a. Literal or plain meanings of Quranic terminologies:
Traditional thinker takes the staff of Moses as physical Staff, Splitting of moon as physical tear of moon of sky. “Birth of Adam from Clay” is taken as Making of Statue of Clay” Angels are considered like birds-like flying objects with big wings. Paradise as physical garden and hell as physical fire But actually the case is quite different.
b. Sources of law:
Traditional Islam draws its laws from four sources: Quran, Sunnah (Sayings and
Actions of Prophet Muhammad), Ijmaa (Consensus of opinion), Qiyas
(Analogical deduction).
Quran and Sunnah both are considered to be permanent, while Ijma and Qiyas are methodologies to deal with the situations which are not mentioned in Quran and Sunnah both. Both methodologies cross not only the boundries of Quran but they both are bound to be limited by sunnah too. This factor created the element of Conservatism, Traditionalism and Past-Worship in Islam.S
Modern view of Quran:
You are correct that the followers of my own religion will not accept such interpretation. This factor is because of difference of Traditional Islam n Modernist Islam, or Arabic Islam n Non-Arabic Islam. The topic of Arabic and Non-Arabic Islam needs of lot of details and historical description and I do not qualify for this. But as for as modernization of Islam is concerned, I would like to say that Quran left a wide space to modernize itself according to demand of times.
There are two types of modernization
1. Modernization of Law
2. Modernization of Meanings
Modernization of Law:
Here the point to be noted is that interpretation of law using all above is made by theocracy. Now imagine hundreds of sects, so hundreds of theocratic authorities on every nook and cornor. So hundreds of different laws, decrees and verdicts. No sect accepts the law of other. If theocratic authority on one sect criticize the law or believes of other, then other is prepare to shed the blood the members of this sect.
Other important thing is that Though Ijtehaad (Ijma and Qiyas) apparently opens a window for evolution of law but it was made bound to Sunnah. So law got stagnant in the age of prophet. And muslim became traditionalist, inflexible, unprogressive.
Modernist draws law from following sources
Quran (Basic Laws by God):
Quran: Here Quran is supposed to be complete source of Basic Law. As far as the Basic Law is concerned, nothing is left by Quran. This Basic Law is considered to be Permanent for ever.
Ijtehaad (Making of By-Laws by human intellect):
Quran left no Basic Law but intentionally left those By-Laws which were destined to be changed with the process of time and evolution of human societies, customs, traditions and psyche. Such By-Laws will be decided by human intellect itself. This human intellect will not be individual but will be under the discipline of collective wisdom which we, in this modern age, call Islamic State. Here the final authority of interpretation of Quranic laws and modification/amendment of By-Laws lies not with theocracy but the central authority of Islamic State who make laws with the consultation of intellectuals, jurists etc of society. Intellectuals are not permitted to give their verdicts or decrees individually. They just give advice to central authority through the mechanism whatever Islamic State has made (like parliament, departments, courts etc). Final decision is only given by Central Authority ( or by Government officials like Judges, Chiefs, or other bureaucrats) which have given specific powers by Central Authority itself)
So this way, Sunnah was first ijtehaad (making of By-Laws by prophet himself) in accordance with civilization, customs and pysche of that time. By-Laws can never be permanent but always destined to be change with the process of time. But what happens when prophet passes away. Theocracy view likes to stick to all Basic-Laws passed by prophet in his life. but modern interpreters’ view is quite different. All the authorities to introduce, reform, modify which were in the hands of prophet in his life automatically transfers to Caliph who takes charge of Quranic System of State. Caliph is actually the caretaker of prophet. So all the authorites of Prophet goes to Caliph and in the ssame way , all the duties and obligation which muslims were bound to discharge for Prophet shifts to Caliph. Now every Caliph order becomes the Prophet order. And every honor and respect and followship paid to Caliph is actually the honor of prophet. was to change by caliphs to come according to demands of time. Caliph was/is just bound to make laws within the boundaries of Quran and with the consultation of learned people.
But our traditional view of Islam made Sunnah an unchangeable law which has stopped the evolution of Islamic law for ever. Windows of Ijma and Qiyaas were also made bound to Sunnah so both failed to develop Islamic law.
Briefly speaking, whatever Quran wanted to be permanent has stated in its pages, and whatever Quran wanted to be changed with time was intentionally left by Quran.
Qur’aan and Sunnah go hand in hand together as our sources of legislated law
Modernization of Meanings:
Quran has two types of verses:
Muhkamaat (Having precise meaning), Mutashaabihaat (Allegorical)
Quran has very important verse about this.
“It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise – they are the foundation of the Book – and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, “We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord.” And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.” ( )
The verses which are allegorical/Symbolic/figurative/pictographic etc. have enormously great space for modernization of meanings. Such verses are very much futuristic in their nature, and make us aware of future of man, society , universe and new atmosphere which will be created after death and new dimensions which will be opened after leaving this 3D world. Modern human knowledge will keep exploring them with the passage of time. So, as Ghulam Ahmed Pervez states that Best interpreter of Quran will be last man in the last era/period, when human knowledge will fully be exposed to expose such Quranic verses. So it is very big mistake to take plain/literal meanings of such verses.
The human mind cannot operate otherwise than on the basis of previous experiences – that is to say, on the basis of perceptions and cognitions already recorded in that mind. Since the metaphysical ideas of religion relate, by virtue of their nature, to a realm beyond the reach of human perception or experience – how can they be successfully conveyed too us? How can we expected to grasp ideas which have no counterpart, not even a fractional one, in any of the apperceptions which we have arrived at empirically? So by means of loan-images derived from our actual – physical or mental – experiences through a parabolic illustration, Quran explains his futuristic ideas.
Quranic verses give a graphic description of Doomsday and Resurrection. A terrifying scene of cosmic upheaval is painted before man. Symbols of stability such as the sun, the stars, the mountains and oceans “fold up”, “lose their lustre”, “vanish” and “boil over”. Unprecedented events such as the herding together of wild beasts occur. A new order and world is unveiled where every soul is rewarded or punished according to its merit.
This is the assertion of Qur’anic scholars like Sayyid Qutb and Muhammad Asad.
“Side by side with these allegories relating to man’s life after death we find in the Qur’ãn many symbolical expressions referring to the evidence of God’s activity. Owing to the limitations of human language – which arise from the inborn limitations of the human mind – this activity can only be circumscribed and never really described. Just as it is impossible for us to imagine or define God’s Being, so the true nature of His creativeness – and, therefore, of His plan of creation – must remain beyond our grasp. But since the Quran aims at conveying to us an ethical teaching based, precisely, on the concept of God’s purposeful creativeness, the latter must be, as it were, “translated” into categories of thought accessible to man. Hence the use of expressions which at first sight have an almost anthropomorphic hue, for instance, God’s “wrath” (ghadab) or “condemnation”; His “pleasure” at good deeds or “love” for His creatures; or His being “oblivious” of a sinner who was oblivious of Him; or “asking” a wrongdoer on Resurrection Day about his wrongdoing; and so forth. All such verbal “translations” of God’s activity into human terminology are unavoidable as long as we are expected to conform to ethical principles revealed to us by means of a human language; but there can be no greater mistake than to think that these “translations” could ever enable us to define the Undefinable.”
For example in the following verse, quran calls the concept of paradise as a parable/example
The example of Paradise, which the righteous have been promised, is [that] beneath it rivers flow. Its fruit is lasting, and its shade. That is the consequence for the righteous, and the consequence for the disbelievers is the Fire. (Quran: 13:35)
You yourself are convinced that paradise and heel are the states of mind. I am fully agreed with you. Quran states this fact about hell as:
“It is the fire of God, (eternally) fueled, which mounts directed at the hearts.
(Quran:104: 8)
God is the Source of Soft and Hard Attributes:
Yes. Rather than using the words “intertwined existence of negative n positive”, it is more suitable to use the words Hard n Soft attributes (or opposite attributes). Most of the social problems arise when a Army commander tries to be commander even at home for his children despite of being father. A leader who wants whole nation to follow law fails to impose the same law on his family and friends. A teacher could not impose the discipline on his own children because of fatherly love which he wants to implement on his students. If to help a wretched person, to be raheem or kareem is necessary , then to stop the hand of cruel or exploiter, it is necessary to be Jabbar and Qahar.
Calamities are necessary evil:
I think it is not proper to use the words of “Necessary Evil” for calamities. What I understand is that it is the series or sequence of obstacles which we must cross or surmount to reach the target of Super-Humanity. When we face such calamities, two types of loss we suffer: Physical and Emotional. To response both types of losses, man is supposed to prepare himself by exploring INSIDE of him. When an earthquake takes place, then on one hand certain types of strengths or potencies relating to cosmos and physical sciences are tested and created by God him. On the other hand, other kind of might and power relating to emotions, psychology and ethics are given opportunity to be elevated. I will like to put it as under:
When an earthquake occurs
a. Intelligence level of man is checked by God/nature if man has developed his capabilities concerning building, their building materials, and other engineering expertise, or they are just habitual of living lazy life and wants to reside always in mud-made homes without getting the benefits of surprising materials and energy resources created by God on earth, planets, sun and other vastnesses of universe.
b. Injured are checked if they have developed their power of endurance when they get severely injured in such natural disaster.
c. Disabled are checked if they have ability to live with their amputated organs and have emotional strength to improve some other ability to work with their cut-off hands or legs etc.
d. People saved from such disaster are checked if they have created ethical powers inside themselves to help and reduce the miseries of affected people.
e. Doctors are checked if they have improved the qualities of mercy, pity and sympathy, dutifulness and wisdom for health and medicine.
f. Human rescue powers are checked that how much risk, sacrifice, and intelligence they can offer to save lives of such miserable people.
and so on.
So this way nature (or God through this nature) offer opportunities, platforms, battlefields full of hurdles, obstacles to wake up human potentialities (intelligence and ethics). Quran expresses this thought as:
“We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast”. ( 2:155)
And Iqbal put the same Quranic subject in a very beautiful style in Urdu.
God bring you acquainted with some storm!
No billow in your sea break in foam,
(OR no flutter is in the waves of your sea)
Whenever we face storm, a ruffle or splash is created in the waves of our inside sea so that we get acquainted with our SELF and its possibilities (Iqbal called this self or ego as KHUDI).
Leaps in knowledge and development:
It is very philosophical topic. I do not qualify to discuss this topic. But one thing that surprise me is the text of Quran: Fixed text, never changed since 1500 years. A slightest change could not be made in Quranic text during all this time. God himself promised to save its text and he accomplished this task by the hands of his believers. He made arrangement through his prophet to write a master copy of Quran and then a lot of copies were prepared by prophets’ colleagues. Surprising thing is how prophet managed to remember this text. There is no slightest mistake or change in this text by him/anyone.
Quran states that Quran is revealed on the heart of prophet (surely a symbolic expression). It is revealed through an angel called Gebrail (again a symbolic expression for cosmic force which causes Quran to reveal). Now how I imagine is that exact words are revealed by some cosmic force which flashes some certain area of human brain and ignites the deepest memory area in human brain with great (if not full) understanding so that he can never forget it. This is what I imagine. God knows better.
I found this article VERY interesting because it sounds almost as though I telegraphed it to you through the ether! Not seriously of course, but your beliefs and mine in your article are exactly aligned. Unfortunately, I do not believe the commentators on this thread seem to be able to perceive the Universe the same way as you and I. I was going to post a lengthy comment, but I see too many Muslims commenting and quoting things from the Quran. To me, this might as well be quotes from the Bible. Religion has no place in this discussion, especially Islam. Others are clearly drawing from deeply embedded roots of Christianity, and it’s anthropomorphism of the Universe complete with emotions. It is really very simple:
The Universe is all there is. It is everything and one thing. Nothing is separate from the Universe, from the undiscovered most fundamental of subatomic particles to the largest organized matter structures like clusters of galaxies.
I suspect that the “holy books” of the world have been trying to communicate this idea, and lesser minds (made so by indoctrination) are unable toiexpand their perceptions to understand exactly what this means. God IS the Universe. It is tangible, real and there is nothing invisible or ghostly about it. There is no Heaven or Hell, and if those do exist then they too are part of this Universe. Everything is part of the Universe, and no part is “greater” or “special” within it. Man is no more special than a bacterium or a hydrogen atom within this Universe. I do not even subscribe to the idea of “multiple universes”, because the Universe means ONE WORD (literally). There is only ONE Universe. Just because our ability to perceive it is limited does not mean the Universe has these limits.
Having said all of that, I need to tell you that the poster here “Mubariz Tariq” is dominating this thread, and filling it with Muslim nonsense, and quotes from the Quran which is a religion. It is a huge turn off for those seeking wisdom and expansion of their perceptions.
Great article.
To Pyramideon:
Thanks! I’m glad you really appreciate my essay and the philosophical thoughts I expressed. It helps to make it worth writing them out and sharing them publicly. In regards to your sentiments on all the comments that have been posted about the Quran, I understand. They can be a bit overwhelming, especially in terms of how lengthy they can be. Believe it or not, they are all from one poster, Tariq, but he changed his user name at one point, for some reason, so it seems as though there is more than one person posting about the Quran. But in his defense, he’s been so considerate and very respectful and polite that I didn’t mind. I’m always open to allowing anyone of any faith or any doctrine to share their views (as long as it doesn’t prove harmful like the views of devil worshipers), even though I may not agree with all of them. Thanks for stopping by and commenting!
Actually I am not preaching my religion as i am not religious person. I just feel that most or all of cosmic/psychic and Godly facts have been gathered in one book and this book is Quran. These facts were also mentioned in Bible (or other books from God) but with the passage of time and in the interest of capitalists / rulers / theocracy these facts were distorted using different techniques. This tragedy also happened to Islam. Wrong/weak traditions (sayings and actions wrongly associated to prophet Muhammad) were used to change the concept of Quran. But fortunately God had made all arrangements by the hands of prophet and his colleagues to safe Quranic text. Now whoever wants to understand the real message of Quran, he should try to read Quran without any help from wrong/weak traditions wrongly associated to prophet, and wrong explanations given by theocracy. Secondly i do not need to change my ID. But when i posted again and again my last comment, it was not displaying on page. So i used, having no other option, my son’s email and my comment displayed at once. Now to check, i am again posting my this comment with both ID’s, My ID and also my son’s ID. If respected Guyus allow my post with my own ID then i will not surely use my son’s ID.
Here’s a real kicker for a thought: What if I were to label (as much as I hate to) my understanding as both pantheistic and panentheistic? To further explain, overall, the universe is “God”. What is the universe composed of? That’s something to consider. Yes, all the very visible to not so visible particles/elements but does not this include the very consciousness/mind itself, in all its aspects (unconscious, subconscious, conscious)? One form of the Great Trinity that is seen in all religions and esoteric teachings throughout. I think the reason there is so much separation and confusion is because we have long ago forgotten all of our aspects/parts that make up the whole (which includes both the duality, trinity, and the many sub-sets of these, or if you prefer, the very vast spectrum). We as humans are only ‘higher’ ranked because we have the ability to recognize every aspect and manipulate it at will…a more aware consciousness experiencing itself through these bodies. To pull apart the very ‘mind’ from ‘matter’ would be silly because the two need each other to exist. I don’t deny the big bang theory; I see it simply as the potential energy bringing forth its desires/potentialities into action. However, even to say that there was “nothing” before the universe is essentially saying there was something, because, in that nothing, there was already everything waiting to come out (which I truly think it works in a cycle like everything else…so the universe may very well “end” by absorbing what it put out there (manifested), only to recreate itself once again, with perhaps different ‘desires/potentialities’, so to say. When I say Universe keep in mind I’m referring again to all the aspects that many religions have separated: material (purely visible, very dense), spiritual (less visible, very light), and what you may call the ‘soul’ or mind (awareness). To reiterate the point of “God” outside of the Universe, many are probably referring to the mind aspect being present before all else, and this may be true in the sense that it imagined itself into existence to experience. They say the idea comes before the project but really, was not the project already there buried within? I think that’s what people mean when they say “God” is unknowable…it’s the very mysterious part of the psyche…the what I call ‘unconscious potential’ if you want to call it that, brought forth into a higher awareness. I say higher awareness because I also say that unconsciousness is a form of awareness as well, albeit not in a way that you could truly define by words. This may relate back to the feminine/masculine aspect too, viewing the unconscious as female (since it is depicted as dark, mysterious, and absorbing) and the conscious male (light, expanding, knowable). But to say that the female or male was there at the start is false, for both were present within each other and always were, which would give rise to the balancing factor, or the child, who is both female and male…androgynous. I really hope none of that was confusing for it sounds so much better in my head but when it comes to putting it in words (oh the curse/blessing of words), it becomes distorted most times. I’m glad to have stumbled up on your blog, anyways! 🙂
Wow, I’m impressed, Jay! Don’t worry, it will likely be confusing for many, but not to me, because many of your thoughts are shockingly similar to my own. I’ve written about many of the points you’ve raised and many of the concepts you’ve expressed, which people seem to rarely discuss. So, I recognized most of what you communicated right away. You have a rare mind. Good job!
It’s reassuring to know that there are others who just ‘get it’, you know? I read a little more about you on your blog and found great similarities between us. For example, I too, felt the urge to share my epiphanies with the world, all to help them better understand and try to unite many concepts into one. The way I do this (or try to, anyhow) is through art, in many forms, and writing as well (mostly poetry). If you do have any artwork on the internet I’d love to see it, that is, if it’s something you’re willing to share. Oh, and we share the same birth date! 😀
For some reason, there was no “Reply” button underneath your last comment, which is likely a WordPress glitch, so I had to use the “Reply” button under your first comment to respond to your second one. I do have some artwork posted here and there on my WordPress site, such as “The Great Epiphany” which I use for my website banner and the cover of my book. A higher resolution of it can be found on the page titled, “You Are The All,” under “My Pantheistic Views.” And, I have a picture of me painting “Foreign Romance” on the page titled, “About Me.” I think I have a few more posted on my Facebook page within my Facebook Notes like Yin-Yang Nature, but I do need to post more of my artwork online. I plan to do so in the near future, I hope. In fact, I plan to create a whole page of my artwork titled “My Art,” here on this site. I can’t wait to find some free time to do that.
By the way, that’s a remarkable coincidence that you have the same birthday!
I want to thank you for your thoughts and ideas. I agree with much of what you have written. I believe we are all part of the cosmos and we have a connection to everything in it. The history of the cosmos is our history too. So many things had to happen in the last 14 billion years to make our existence possible. And to think that we have reached a state where we can contemplate our own existence is just mind boggling.
We all have a soul, spirit, consciousness or whatever you want to call it. It is the pure essence of our being. Strip away our senses, our emotions, and our thoughts and our spirit remains. The universe has a spirit too and this is god-like property you speak of. The consciousness of the universe is available to us at all times if we are open to it. It is a source of energy, strength, guidance, beauty, love, and creativity. It is constant and non-judgmental. When you get a gut-feeling or just know something you are doing is right, that is the consciousness of the universe touching you.
I believe life is an inherent part of the cosmos. Our existence may be the result of many, many random events and processes but the universe is meant to support life. Showing respect for life and this planet we call home is showing respect to the greater consciousness of the cosmos. I can never look at the night sky without a feeling of awe, knowing that although I may be just one individual on this insignificant planet, I am none the less a part of it all.
http://www.truthcontest.com
Look up Integrated Information Theory. Might give you a new perspective on if God can choose.
I think conclusion of David is true and ,according to all holy books of all re lesion God is one every re lesion is indicating for consciousness which will show door of God.Without inward journey no one is going to accept view of others.We are discussing about God cosmos its great,from my point of view the person who come to know concept of WHO AM I he will understand who is God what is his role of nature.My idea is to all of you try to understand from where you come what is purpose of your life and ultimately where you will go because real truth is this every living this have to go one day from this planet.We need driver to run each and every vehicle then we must have one supreme who is taking care of every life of earth.
Thanks
Shrikant
The word God can only cause conflict; You may think I am being harsh but, as the telling of time, this has always been the case. Universe.. on the other hand has no misgivings or misunderstandings, it is just what it is; from which ever view point you stand from at the time.
Science has proven that it started from the big bang, which to some is inconceivable, as God, is to others.
For myself I I believe in the universe and only describe it as God, as so others can try to comprehend what it is I’m trying to convey.
From my stand point I feel the connections with everything, and as I learn I give back to the universe my knowledge. Although, I may not be an Einstein, and be renowned for my maths capability, I am… as so is every single being (conscious or not) capable of experience and with each new experience comes new insight; both for the participant and the universe.
I agree that the term God means too many things to too many people and seems to create conflict whenever it is used. I prefer to use “a power greater than myself” which just acknowledges that we are part of something larger. I’m not sure exactly what that is and maybe it is beyond description but I know I am a participant in this universe.
I have thought a lot about my connection to the universe and I like the idea that it not only offers so many thing for me but I am also contributing to it with everything I do. My contribution may be small but it is there none the less.
Nice! I to have come to believe that the univers is God and would like to here a response from you on an idea that I have that seams to have some reflection on your point of view.
I would like to ad one more “element” to the universe with energy time and matter. Ad life or self awareness as I have heard it referred to.
If God is the universe and is able to act on the universe in any way, then that would by default make the universe a life form. If “he” was made out of energy and matter time and life. Would it not stand to reason that some of that life would flow though “him” to us. Then giving us at least a small amount of his self awareness.
When we dye we then lose that life and become just matter energy and time.
You did say that the universe acks on us by guiding us. So our we sort of kindred thinking?
Yes, I think along those same lines of thought. In one sense, the universe is like a divine machine or being or life form. Each of us is a part of that divine being and share the same qualities and attributes. We are each a reflection of that being.
As I’ve grown older, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about exactly this. I think we all wish for enlightenment, but I don’t believe that ever happens. We must decide for ourselves what it all means and be happy with that in the end. Since the beginning of time, man has always worshipped some “God” or another, knowing deep within that there is something greater, Something in control, but not knowing what it is. That thing, in reality, is the universe. Some refer to it as the “Cosmos”. Same thing, different name. The universe is not a “him”, a “he”, or a “she”, or any being at all. But, it is all powerful and in control of everything, including us. No beginning, no end, nothing beyond. I see “God” as a psynonym for “Universe”. I’m not an atheist as I truly believe in God, the Universe.
All very nicely said! Thanks for posting your well-thought-out comment!
I am a practicing Witch and a magister if a local trad covren in Salt Lake City Utah; fir many years i have been evolving my cision of what God/Goddess is; the way i veiw the divine may not be the same some or most Witches do, but my view is pantheistic; i have never known that there was a set of beliefs that followed that model, and find it more than interesting! I would like to know more about the traditional pantheistic view, thus far i see the difference only in also seeing a polerity; a division in the polerity of nature is what we would refer to when we reference the Goddess feminine, and the hornned God masculine; i third, neutral inferred aspect could be considered aswell; we refer to it as the “sacred androgen”. We also believe that the first purpose of all life is to survive and grow on an evolutionary level, and that on this world as we know it, humans are capable of defining, navigating and eventually mastering fate! (What common Witches would refer to as “spellcraft” ) to this tradition of the craft, we do not see, acknowledge or belive in any force or forces that are “supernatural”, a lot like pantheism, we belive that all methods of magical practice utilised by the Witch are accomplished and powered by the arts human discipline and will; ours is the travelers path, explorers. Our purpose, or the reason we practice on whole, is to attempt to become the best version of ourselves, by living to discover, and unlock human potential! The old traditions and sabats we observe, all serve as a comfortable and familliar package for our arte and discipline. I am facinated and intrigued to discover pantheism as a functioning tradition and spiritual philosophy, i would love to know more about it!
Since ‘pantheism’ is a broad umbrella term essentially meaning all is God, or as I like to define it, all is the constant causation of our existence, there is a wide rang of pantheists with varying detailed views of that main overall view. But I think it’s safe to say that most of us pantheists do view the world in naturalistic terms and never as something that is supernatural, which you seem to agree with. We are always hoping to study the world as it truly is and learn as much as we can about the ‘natural’ world and its ‘natural’ causes. If you are interested in learning more about pantheism, you would do well to search the name Baruch Spinoza along with the search term ‘pantheism’. Also, you might want to join some of the pantheist groups on Facebook. One of my favorite ones is the group created by Perry Rod. Here’s a link to that group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/pantheism
Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to leave a comment. 🙂
Thank you!! and by the way I’m sorry for all my typo’s; something about using my iPhone to comment on your site in the blurry haze of half asleep midnight has a lot to do with me typing like an inebriated chimpanzee. (not to discredit Chimpanzees with my idiocy)! lol but thank you for your reply and your advice! – Cheers – Andwyn
I figured it was something like that. 🙂 I was able to make out 90% of your comment, which was good enough for me. You may be able to edit your own comments. I see a little ‘Edit’ link to the right of the date of your post (under your username), but that feature may only be available to me–not sure. It was good of you to explain the typos; that was a little confusing. I simply had assumed that English might be your second or third language, which is perfectly okay, too. I get commentators from all over the world and sometimes have to decipher certain comments, so that was one possibility. Take care!
I do belive that god is nothhing but universe beacuse that is the one which is acting as god in our mind and fulfilling every thing with some law.
Scientist Stephen Hawking clearly said in his research paper about the
religious thought that, there is no limit in the place of this
universe, there is no beginning or end of time and there is nothing
that can be done by the creator. Again he said that when opened full
work of creation, then we are known with God and mankind is share-hold
of that knowledge.
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Encouraging the spirit of discovery and sharing of fundamental
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Consequently, If you understand about the fact! Strike the right note
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Secrets of the Universe
In the beginning was infinite geometric space. This space became filled with Static Time at absolute rest and absolute cold. Static time is strictly quantitative, and does not differentiate between past, present and future. Being quantifiable and measurable, static time is a scientific concept. Static time of 0.0033 microseconds per meter will be measured regardless of the direction chosen.
Stars move through static time, which does not disrupt their motion. Static time exists but is imperceptible. Static time is the deepest secret of the universe.
Static time fills all infinite space, eliminating the possibility of a vacuum. Static Time Waves (STW) travel through static time. The speed of STW is 300,000 km/second.
Aetzbar in amazon
The Newtonian universe is based on matter and force.
The Einsteinian universe is based on matter and energy.
The Aetzbarian universe is based on static time and energy.
There is no gravity, and there is no gravity waves.
There is Static Time , and there is Static Time Waves. (STW)
There is a particles of Static Time.
Static Time is real and measured.
Everyone knows the Dynamic Time.
It is time to recognize the Static Time.
Maybe a bit out of your subject, do you believe human evolution?
Yes, I do believe in human evolution. I believe all things are always moving and changing within spacetime, from the perceiver’s point-of-view. However, I also believe the universe, as a whole, remains constant and conserved. The universe is like a huge cosmic conveyor belt, whereby areas are being created or constructed, while other areas are being destroyed or deconstructed. So humans (or humanoids) are always evolving into existence on one planet or another out there in the cosmos. All possible cosmic events are always taking place, somewhere. I often think of it like an infinite cosmic film reel with an infinite number of frames, expressing all moments. Each perceiver is like the projector who must experience the world in a series of changes and moments in time, but in truth all moments are a constant–always have been and always will be–in my opinion.
Guyus, I stumbled upon you because I was seeking for more wisdom with the things that are happening to me. Prior to learning the word Pantheism, I have been bothered by a voice in my head regarding the direction of my belief. And this has been going on for almost two years. Until last night, my mind was torn between believing God and the Universe are two different entities and having the Universe as the ultimate and highest form of Power (source of). I am a Roman Catholic by paper but I no longer practice as one. The voice keeps telling me that Universe is God. Listening to that voice is inevitable, in a sense that something is forcing the information inside my head. I knew for a fact that I needed to finally choose what to believe. Because frankly, having this kind of confusion has a huge effect in my day-to-day life. Today, I am glad to know that I am not going crazy. And I am starting to feel that I do belong in the realm of Pantheism. I know I will need to discover more information about this matter so I will better understand this new direction I am heading. I hope we can exchange emails and share more wisdoms with each other.
It’s always nice to think a new pantheist has been born into the world. But I hope you don’t feel too rushed in trying to determine the nature of the universe or of God, which we pantheists do view to be one and the same. As you likely already know, we humans can never know anything for certain. All we can ever do is to take all that we believe to be true to form an overall world view. We are always learning new things and having to often adjust our thinking throughout our lives. I too am still learning and predict I always will. No one will ever be able to say to themselves, “I fully understand it all.” Some mystery and uncertainty will always remain and helps to make life interesting. Try to enjoy the journey towards truth, and when things become too confusing or stressful, simply try to do what you believe is good and true. The universe, by its own natural, unchangeable laws, usually rewards those who try to walk a righteous, balanced path. Thanks for stopping by!
I will keep everything you said in mind and in practice. I only grateful that I’m starting not to feel lost. This morning just as I woke up, I started reconnecting with the Universe, our God. Yesterday, as I finally proclaimed my acceptance of Pantheism, I felt that sense of clarity began to consume my mind.
I’m so happy for you! I know that same good feeling of clarity and not feeling so lost! It’s a wonderful thing. Continue on your way towards your spiritual path of enlightenment.
This explanation seems to similar to Spinoza’s philosophical god. It also says that free will is an illusion and that mind-body are expression of same thing, controlled by a greater force, the universe.
Also many atheists are actually pantheist but are not aware about pantheism. Even I didn’t know about pantheism until recently. Its true that most people view atheists in a stereotypical way when the truth is there are as many good atheists as there are theists. Atheism can drive people to do good knowing there’s no supernatural being coming to the rescue of others in need.
Yes, people have often told me that my views are very similar to Baruch Spinoza’s. That’s how I first learned about him and how I was first introduced to his philosophy. People kept asking me whether I had studied his work and suggested that I google him. I finally did and he is now one of my favorite classic philosophers. He viewed the world very much the same way I do. But when you say my “explanation seems [too] similar to Spinoza’s philosophical god,” as in too much, do you view that as a bad thing? Do you dislike Spinoza’s views?
The term ‘atheist’ refers to one who lacks a belief in any god or gods, so it would be contradictory to say “many atheists are actually pantheist,” since pantheists are those who believe in a god. They view the universe to be God. You may be strictly referring to the Abrahamic Judeo-Christian view of God. In that case, then yes, one who is a non believer in the Abrahamic Judeo-Christian version of God can also be a pantheist, simultaneously. I too, have been a pantheist, almost all my life, but only in recent years learned about the term and definition of pantheism.
I agree with you that there are many good atheists and that “atheism can drive people to do good.”
Thanks for dropping by and leaving a comment!
Guyus
I have not read through the comments above in depth, only skimmed the first few. That’s because I want to observe for myself, to you, that, in my opinion, pantheism is included in panentheism, therefore the greater concept must come closer to the Infinite.
Our ‘satiable imaginations are virtually infinite, and we should never consciously opt for a lesser concept for “God” than we are capable of imagining. Your own words indicate that you deliberately hold a lesser concept than your mind can contemplate. Therefore you have not gone far enough to imagine the Infinity of God.
Panentheism by its very concept cannot put a limit on “God”. “God” is outside of the manifested universe, or, as I prefer, the “world of humans”. To “God there is no spacetime other than that created by “God”. Everything that exists is NOW to “God”, and existence of it all is continually expanding within the spacetime that “God” governs through.
So far as we know at this time, this universe is not populated with greater minds than our own. We alone are sapient. In effect, each of us is an egocentric universe of One, with all of God’s other manifestations within the world of humans interacting with us, forever. This planet, this mortal life, is just one of an endless number that each of us experiences. And the only other Being that we intimately connect with inseparably is “God”, one-on-one.
“God” does exist “outside” of the world of humans, this infinitely expanding universe. The universe is just one aspect of the infinitely expanding multiverse. And “God” knows every particle of it intimately….
Amazing piece. I’ve been struggling with this for years and you finally put into words what I’ve been feeling. Bravo!
Well thank you very much for saying so! And I’m very glad my words were able to help you! That gives me encouragement to keep expressing my views publicly. 🙂
Thank you for starting this discussion. For many years I thought I was an athiest who looked at the universe as my God but thanks to you I now see I’m not alone. You did a great job at describing how I feel. I just can’t believe it took me this long to google “the universe is god”.
Thanks again,
Rob
Thank you very much for your kind comment and appreciation! And you’re very, very welcome! 🙂
Thank You Guyus for enlightening the world about this subject.I noticed that most people who turned to pantheism do so with their freewill and mind,i was one of them until i googled “the Universe is God”.I didn’t know such article was already in place,kudos to you.On another note,i think we can create an international community.Maybe within the space of five years can create a standard like the bible with reward and purpose emblazoned around the concept of reincarnation than heaven and paradise after conducting adept research.Pantheism is the closest thing to discovering our true nature,reincarnation made more sense than the shadowy concept of paradise,atleast we all had a feeling we,ve been here before and i strongly believe every human have spiritual guide and this helps to entail the true teachings of pantheism(universal laws. There is nothing like evil as it teaches too,even more than pleasure and our existence and maturity is roped around evil and good,both are a kind reminders.Let me know what you think.Inducting a giant book of cosmos or universal law is a step in the right direction to entertain the pantheist community. *bows*
Thanks Alexander! And I agree with many of the things you said in your reply comment.
Beautifully explained!! Thank you for sharing!
For a very long time when people have asked me if I believe in God or religion I have replied with “I believe in the universe”. For no reason at all I typed that into Google and stumbled across this blog. You have put into words how I feel exactly and I like many others I did not know there was a word for how I feel. I think I realised how this concept when I was thinking about how scary death can seem…. Then suddenly I realised that I was not scared before I was born (so in a way dead) and that single thought made me feel the strength of the universe and how we are all connected. How everything must run it’s course and we learn and grow through every success and failure. That every action has a reaction. I think being aware of how powerful the universe is and having respect for it makes you in turn a more powerful and respectful human being. I like your idea of natural balance. I often look up to the night sky and the stars (even though I know it is in reality a window into the past) for guidance and inner strength.
All very well expressed and nicely said, Lucy! I’m glad the universe has led you to my blog if it proves to be helpful to you in any way along your spiritual journey towards truth. 🙂
Very well said Lucy! We are all connected and we have this beautiful connection to the vast universe. For me, it is a source of strength and wonder.
I’ve always believed the universe (God) speaks to us through number. I’m with you on everything you’ve said. I don’t believe God is some man that is perfect and controls everything we do. Its just not possible. Of course anyone that believes in this man with debate your beliefs. I recently lost my sister in a motorcycle accident. Looking back a few days maybe a week before her accident, we were given signs. We weren’t suppose to understand them at the time, but they became clear after.
Without a absolute doubt in my mind the universe guides us. I can go even deeper and tell you we have all died in our existance and people are mourning us in a different parallel universe as we speak!. I believe in the Einstein Theory. “When we die we wake up in the morning just as we did today”. So many coincidences that can’t be explained.. like de ja vue (not sure how to spell it) we exist even after death. We’ve died probably 1000 x, but we’ll never remember it. Maybe our dream gives us glimpses of our other selves in the past, future, and present. We can never know everything about The universe and the conscience mind.
You’ll probably never see this but I wanted to comment anyways. Thank your for your column
All very nicely expressed, Stephanie, and you’re very welcome! Thanks! 🙂
I have gone through the discussion/deliberations above and find Guyus Seralius view astoundingly similar rather say totally synchronised with my thought. Such thought has power to resolve all the issues in this world………..
Well thank you very much for saying so! It’s always nice to come across like minded individuals. 🙂
I have been speaking with the universe for months, I am the trinity of god this time.
We are the universe. There isn’t anything that we have, can do, can conceive or want that isn’t already ours.
It’s not often I read something which makes me feel I might have written it.
Thanks! And I know that same, rare, good feeling. 🙂
I have christian background, but of late I internalize and examine reality in a way that appears strange to my colleagues. Actually, I have tended to describe myself as a free thinker and not an extremist in faith or religion whenever asserting myself to critiques. Until today, I did not know the conscepts of Pantheism and Panentheism as existing descriptions of persons who vary in reasoning and belief about the origins, and or who God is. My lead to your Article was a sudden thought of ” what if God is a Universe”. I have liked your contribution because it widens my focus and helps answer questions of natural law/universal laws and sparks more interest into the Biblical understanding of the origins of God, which is to some extent confusing.
Thank you so much for your miraculous input defining the Universe an God are merely one in the same. I grew up in Christian/ Petescotal Relgion which never felt right to me nor could I agree with the Bible. This past year did the Universe finally give me a Spiritual Awakening for me to start looking into Nature an then to grow even beyond leading into the Universe. Ive always been gravitated to Nature an felt like it was a tike spent in Church. I’m eager to continue my seek to make sense of this new profound belief I have for my self. I do not know if you will even actually read this but in Hopes that you do I gave it a shot to thank you an to reach out to you for any pointers on how to research more upon this view. Thank you so much N may the Universe carry you along your way
Thank you for all your kind words! Comments like yours always energize me and help to encourage me to continue publicly sharing my views online. Definitely google the term ‘pantheism’ and search for that topic on YouTube. As you may already know, I even have some YouTube videos posted on the subject of pantheism. Also, you might want to join one of my favorite Facebook pantheist groups founded by Perry Rod. The link to it is https://www.facebook.com/pantheism
Perry Rod and others also started a pantheist website and community at https://pantheism.com
I wish you the best on your continued spiritual, philosophical journey to learn more about the nature of the universe and your place in it. 🙂
Hello Guyus, I just found a conversation I had with you back in 2014 when I first started my journey. I have internalized your words from that time and though my mind forgot our conversation, I know my “loaned” soul retained the essences of your words and continues to grow. Just want to give a heartfelt thank you. 🖖🏿
I enjoyed reading your comment! And you’re very welcome! I give you a very heartfelt thank you as well. 🙂